Q&A: Principal Downey

The Messenger speaks to Principal Brian Downey in an extensive interview regarding recent events in our community and across the nation, specifically addressing instances of discrimination at Northview, standard procedures for dealing with such instances, and changes to make going forward.  

Are you aware of the amount of student activism going on right now? What are your thoughts on it?

I am not aware of the details of what our kids are involved with. It’s a little hard because obviously we are in summer session right now and students and staff aren’t either remotely in the building or physically in the building. I am aware that there were some local protests yesterday and even today, but to the extent of what our kids are involved in, I don’t know that detail. I am assuming that our kids are there and involved. And I would assume that our kids have even gone downtown. But those are just assumptions. I think one of the most important things that we can do in education is to use that education to empower our students to not only find their voice but then to use their voice. It doesn’t matter what their topic is or what their passion is or what their field is, but one of the most powerful things we can do is encourage our kids to speak up and encourage our kids to take action. So as that applies to what's going on in our country, our state, our community, and even our school right now, our kids should be empowered and they should speak, and they should have a loud voice. And it should be a voice that we, the adults, and in this case me, the principal, should be listening to. That's my job right now to speak less and listen more, especially with what’s going on in our country right now.

Northview prides itself on its diversity. How has the school made students feel inclusive?

When Charlottesville happened, we as a school had lots of conversations around that. I brought in an outside organization to hold a series of seminars for the adults, for the leaders in the building. We had all the department chairs, assistant principals, myself included. We had once-a-month training around basically a different -ism every month, whether it was anti-semitism this month, or whether it was racism. We had a whole series of seminars to help educate us as adults and to make us aware that biases exist consciously and subconsciously. Beyond that as a school, we have been designated a No Place for Hate school which was led by the counseling team. We certainly try our best to support our student organizations. I am fairly liberal in my interpretation of students’ first amendment rights. We have supported our clubs and organizations in events that they have wanted to do. I got a whole bunch of complaints from some parents a couple of years ago because of the Gay-Straight Alliance club. They had my backing and my blessing, and I got some blowback on that, but I couldn’t have cared less because I was happy to support those kids. Our Black History Club does their performance every year, and Mrs. Pope does a tremendous job of leading them. We do our best as a school to support them. On a smaller scale, we have Muslim students who pray every day, and we give them a space to do that. They come to us and ask, and we say “of course.” I’ve actually ended meetings to allow those students to make sure that those kids are taken care of. Those are a few examples off the top of my head, but the big caveat is that I’m sure that it’s not enough. It’s obviously not enough.

Recently, students, both former and current, have expressed concerns over issues regarding race at Northview and how it’s become normalized. What are your thoughts or experiences on that?

It would be naive of me or anyone in our community to think that these things don’t happen. As the principal of a school, I could never stand up and say, “Racism doesn’t happen in our community or our school.” I could never stand up and say,“Kids aren’t mistreated on some level or some way,” and that goes for all of our kids. It would be foolish of me to stand up and say those things. So I know these things happen. A lot of what was put on social media this week was not new stuff, and some of it was situations that we were directly involved in as a school and some of it was not. There’s so much that happens that the principal doesn’t know about. But I would like to think it’s not normalized. It does exist. It does happen. I would hesitate to say that it’s normalized in the school. I think it’s normalized in some pockets and for some kids. I certainly hope it’s not normalized in the school. But I don’t know what I don’t know, and it would be foolish of me to say that it is definitively not normalized.

What are you or the administration doing specifically to address the incidents of racism being brought up right now?

We’re in summer mode, and we’re in COVID-19 mode. So to directly address these things is nearly impossible, let alone what legal jurisdiction I would have right now. If something new comes up in the community on social media, I probably wouldn’t have jurisdiction because it’s not impacting the school because school is not in session. I know that’s not the answer people in the community want to hear but legally I wouldn’t have much room to step into something. That being said, some pieces on social media that I have seen have been addressed whether it was involving a student or staff. The hard part and what people don’t like is that I can’t tell you how it was addressed for the student’s privacy and for the employee’s privacy. There are laws that protect the students, and there are employment laws that protect the employees. If a member of the staff did something inappropriate and they were  suspended without pay for two days, you would never know. You would never know how the situation was addressed. From the public eye, it often looks like there was no response, and that’s difficult to push back on because, in order for me to push back on it, I would have to say,  “No, we responded. Said teacher was suspended for two days without pay.” And I just can’t do that. Often times, I’m stuck saying “It was addressed.” And people say “How?” And I say “I’m sorry, but I can’t share that with you.” And then they say “Well, that’s because it was never addressed. You’re covering up. You’re lying.” Schools, not just me, but schools, in general, are often, in a public eye, put in a very difficult position because legally we can’t say much. 

So there’s a narrative out there that I can’t argue against. I know what’s out there on social media. In fact, I was directly called a racist. It’s hard to push back on that because there’s not much I can say about it. I said earlier that it’s my job to listen. For the stuff that’s on social media, I don’t think it’s my job to push back on it right now or to address it head-on because I think it’s my job to listen. I’m sure there’s stuff out there that I haven’t seen yet. Some of it was angry, some of it was emotional, and some of it was directly attacking me. I’ve gotten some hate. I’ve been called a racist. I’ve been called some other things. I’ve been cursed at and all that stuff on social media and even via email, but it’s my job to listen. I’m trying to listen with empathy, and I’m understanding that people are justifiably angry. Racism still exists, and people are justifiably angry about it. Enough is enough. It’s my job to listen, to take it in, and then to use that to think about the start of the year when we return to school. How are we going to return to school? There’s a big difference sometimes between perception and reality. Someone can perceive something and that can be their narrative, and I can say, “Well, in reality, it didn’t....” But perception is reality sometimes, and we talk about that as leaders here within the school. Just because we think the reality is different, doesn’t change that person’s reality. Sometimes there are actions or things that are said where the intent could have been with a good heart, but it is received or perceived in a different manner. That’s important. That has value and meaning. So it’s my job to understand that and to take in that perception so that when we come back to school the students, the staff, the community, and me working together can take this on heavily. I am the poster child of white privilege. I am white. I am male. I am well-educated. I’m affluent. I have checked every box to be checked to set me up for success in life through very little doing of my own. Now I did have to do certain things along the way, but I’ve had every advantage given to me along the way. My life experience is different, and I have to listen to and understand someone else’s life experience. It is going to be different, and if I don’t take that in and try to remove those obstacles and try to improve that life experience, then I’ve failed within my job. There are people saying right now that I have indeed failed, but it’s not for me to push back on. It’s for me to take in and listen to again and to work towards being better as an individual and in turn being better as a school community.

What is the procedure when a complaint regarding instances of prejudice or discrimination is filed?

It’s pretty similar for both whether it’s a student or staff. Usually, it will get passed on to an assistant principal. An individual will come forward in some way, shape or form whether it’s a teacher, parent, counselor, or student bringing it. And that will be passed to an assistant principal, and that assistant principal will conduct an investigation which normally means interviewing any involved parties including witnesses. So if something happened in a classroom setting, we’d pull up that roster and start back finding. We would try to either “prove or disprove'' what's being alleged. We are pretty good at being open-minded. We will follow through, and we will seek that truth, and we will take the appropriate action. If it’s a student we have our student handbook which outlines what the consequence would be for the particular behaviors. It depends on what the situation is. 

Now in my experience, and now let me step back out of that topic of racism, but certainly in my experience of a principal of over six years, the scale of consequences for students is from a conference with your administrator all the way up to expulsion, and I’ve done all of those. It’s depending on what the topic is and what the situation is. We do our best to investigate, find the truth wherever that may land, and then take action with guidance.

Apart from the consequences depending on the situation, what do you feel students or staff members should take away from such a situation? With past experiences, do you feel like people have learned or changed?

So anytime you’re dealing with, whether student or staff or even myself, a disciplinary action, the most important part is not the consequence. It is the education. Who cares if a kid gets suspended from school for five days if they haven’t learned anything? Who cares if a staff member got a letter of reprimand if they didn’t learn anything from it? It’s useless at that point. This kind of gets back into the topic of racism. If we don’t include that education part and the making amends part, and this is especially true when the action hurts someone else, then what? You have to kind of put those two pieces together if we are going to expect a change in behavior going forward because that’s ultimately what you want, especially when dealing with kids. Teenagers make mistakes all the time. We kind of expect that, and that’s why we're in this job. It’s called education for a reason, and it’s not just your academic standards. It’s life in general, so we’re not looking to just punish a kid and stamp it closed and move on. We want that kid to learn and grow and grow as a human being. Now there are going to be times where in order for teaching to happen, learning has to happen. If that learning piece doesn’t happen, that’s the problem. Education goes beyond just this one topic of racism. Now, there are going to be times where we jump from zero to 100. Not every case is all right. We start here, but if you improve, great. Every case is facts specific, and our response is based on that, so it’s not just a one size fits all type of approach. 

Are potential employees screened during the hiring process?

Fulton county is a big district. There is a hiring process that we go through, and that includes obviously the basics like an interview and stuff like that. We do ask pointed questions to try to pull out how they treat all students. So that doesn’t necessarily just mean a person of color or a minority student. That also means special education students. All means all. But beyond that, for human resources, we all have to submit to a background check, so if there’s anything criminal that will show up, that gets addressed. 

Is Northview open to creating new ways for students to feel more included? Is there a place where students can discuss their thoughts without repercussions?

Of course, absolutely. If we were in school right now, and events regarding racism transpired, we would absolutely be having some sort of student forums where we would be having some open dialogues, absolutely. Most likely, we would be forming some sort of student advocacy committee or group that would help lead it, but we would be having some pretty open and honest dialogues, and I would envision that it would be emotional. I would envision that I’d be on the receiving end of some of it and that would be okay. It would be my job to listen. I will say this, and this is kind of a segway parallel conversation. I have been in several meetings lately with my colleagues. Now the adults are hurting just like the kids are hurting, so if we have Northview kids that are hurting and angry right now, we also have adults who work in Fulton County who are experiencing those same emotions. I have been in several meetings recently in which we’ve had the open forum where it’s been kind of “Hey, speak, share.” And there’s been tears, and there’s been anger, and there’s been frustration, and there’s been a whole spectrum of emotion that has poured out. We’re going to do our best to make it better, and every step that we take going forward does indeed make it better, but we still haven’t solved it, and let’s not be naïve to think just because I am a great principal, and I formed a subcommittee on racism that I’ve solved the issue. I know there’s still going to be a kid and adult, or somebody doing something and saying something, and in fact, I know when we form that committee, when we take that action, there is going to be a backlash to it. I sent an email out to the community on Monday morning speaking my mind a little bit. I said that it is my responsibility and obligation to stand up and say racism is unacceptable and that right now I’m having very hard, difficult conversations with my two young kids, and my hope is that you as parents are having those same conversations. I know some parents received that email really well, and some parents were like, “What the hell is this nonsense you know what about me?” I don’t want to give light to too much of what you saw on social media, but we did deal with it. So I’m not naïve to think when we do this, there’s not going to be backlash to it. Now that’s not going to stop us from doing it because it’s the right thing to do, and I firmly believe in that.

What powers do you have as a principal, and what powers do you not have in instances like this that go above your head to the county or the district? What are restrictions on what you can say and take actions against and what you can't?

It's school board policy that I am to remain apolitical during my work hours, in my official capacity as principal. Now, I do have my first amendment right, so when the workday ends at 3:30, I can go pick up that sign and go join that protest, as I have in the past. But during my official capacity, I am to remain apolitical. That does narrow some of what I can do and say, because oftentimes with that voice, there then has to be a policy change to address it, right? So that's at the school board level, or that's at the state or federal level. So that's where that line gets drawn for me. I can speak up and out and against something, but I can’t then go say something about policy. In this topic, racism, I can stand up all day long and say, racism is not acceptable in any form, shape, or matter. But I can't take that next step. That's where I need to allow you to take that next step. Again, I don't have the power to make or create school board policy. I can try to influence it when it gets reviewed or brought up for discussion, but ultimately, that's the school board members’ job. My power is very limited there. My power is going to be limited by the fact that we do have our academic standards to teach. I would get myself in trouble if I said, “Hey, It's September 2 this entire week of school, all day, every day, we're going to be sitting in workshops and discussions to raise our awareness and educate ourselves.” I'm sure I would have some space to do it, but I'm sure there's going to be a limit on that space. My power is limited as soon as we talk about policy. It's my job to carry out, and enforce the policy and laws, not to make them, even though I wish I could sometimes.

How do you see the long term effects of what's happening right now, in terms of affecting Northview and the community?

It may be early to fully answer that right now because we're still in the protest phase, for lack of a better word. We're still in the reacting stage. We're still in that emotional stage. I'm angry. I'm upset. I'm frustrated. But what I think is going to change into a long term impact is the eye-opening of people in society, other than people of color, which is huge right now, much bigger than it ever has been. There has been this movement amongst people who are not of color of our own ownership in our roles of allowing racism or being a silent partner in racism. That's been the seat change that is happening. So this movement is not just black lives matter and those who are directly involved in black lives matter. It’s not just this narrow band of our population moving this issue forward. I think it's a much bigger game that's moving this issue forward. When you get that collective spirit, meaningful change is going to happen. That is going to be the long term difference, and that's going to allow for that long term change. We don’t know what that looks like now, but that's certainly my hope. As angry and as frustrated as I am right now, and as sad as I am right now, there's that hope. This kind of feels different. This might be different. This might have an impact. 10 years from now, we're going to look back and go, “Why did we wait so long? Thank God we changed.” In a Northview setting, that means a kid dropping the N-word in a group chat is called out right away. On a small scale, behavior changed because we recognize that there's an impact beyond just being a teenager, joking around, or whatever justification or defense that we used previously that we don't have that anymore. That's been stripped away. It's been exposed for what it is. The seat change that's happening now is that term white privilege. It's sinking in for people that they are fortunate and lucky and that it shouldn't be that way. That's not right. I benefited from it. Wait a second. That means someone else didn't benefit. Someone else didn't have access. I've been pulled over a number of times I've never been scared once. I've gotten out of more tickets than I've ever got. I know other principles who are African American that would say, “Really? I’ve never gotten out of a ticket. Every time I'm pulled over, I'm really uncomfortable.” I recognize that I can drive down the road and I don't care when I’m pulled over. That's not right. I think that seat change is happening within so much of our population now. That's what's going to have that long term impact here. At least that's my hope.

Going back to students and being on social media, a lot of people have been posting about how to take action, whether it's signing petitions or donating. One of the main things people mentioned was starting those uncomfortable conversations about race with families and reflecting on your own life. How do you think we should start these uncomfortable conversations in the Northview community?

Any way possible. So long as we move an inch forward, that's progress. I've been in some conversations with my colleagues. It's very uncomfortable. As a white man, to be a part of a conversation about racism with my black colleagues in which they are sharing their life experiences is hard. But that shouldn't stop you. You have to be a part of that conversation. That's why I emailed the community on Monday morning to say that as a parent, I am having conversations with my kids, who are eight and 10. This is hard for an eight-year-old, in the sense that they are not mature enough to even understand what's happening, but my 10-year-old does. She sees it on the news, and she doesn't like watching it, but I've explained everything to her. When I came out of one of those emotional meetings, I told my daughter exactly what happened. That’s modeling in a sense. That's why I said to my community, “Talk to your kids. Ask them.” And that's a two-way street. Kids shouldn't be afraid to ask their parents. I would encourage our kids to lead those conversations as well. As adults, sometimes we're settled in our ways and our belief systems, so it may take someone making us feel uncomfortable to challenge those belief systems. I would encourage everyone to have that conversation, even if it's just saying “Hey, did you see the news today? They’re still on their tenth day or 12th day. Mom, how do you feel about this?” We're asking them what their experience has been

If you have anything else you would like to say, go ahead.

I don't have the answer right now, but I am leaning hard into the district to develop some sort of actionable plan for when we've returned to school. We may get past the emotion of the moment come August, but we're not gonna be past the meaning of the movement. What are we doing as a school and a community to address this? What actionable steps are we doing? What does Northview do? Well, clearly, not enough. What are we doing, going forward? I don't have that answer, nor do I think it should be Northview acting in isolation, to come up with that, because this is going on in Cambridge, in Chattahoochee, and in Johns Creek. No one should be naive or shocked that this stuff happens in our schools. We've had swastikas painted on our walls. We've had swastikas painted on the flagpole. We've had the N-word scrawled into our bathrooms. That's what happens here. It absolutely happens here. Northview is a microcosm, and it mirrors society, for all of its greatness and all of its flaws. So we are collectively changing that. We can't be naive to think that it doesn't, but it won't happen again. But clearly, we're not doing enough to address it and change it. Now there is another conversation to be had about how much responsibility falls on the school. And that's a conversation for a different day because we're limited in our capacity on some level on what we can do and how we can do it. We just are. Our teachers are not trained to address this topic in a professional manner to help heal our community and move us forward. That's going to be part of our obstacle, which is how do we do it within the confines of a school setting. I don't have those answers today. I hope to have some of the answers come August but I will not have all the answers. That's for sure. I wish we were in school because I would be saying a lot more.

Please note: This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.